Curse

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Admin Edit: This is a break off conversation of our MMO as a multi-level marketing scheme

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Even market structure itself is wrong, because it is based on exploiting people on lower tiers. Without incentive of "army of underlings that pay your bills", there goes incentive to grow pyramid. Making it useless if one hopes to actually sell stuff sales.

Anyhow, people reading what Daze posted also should read this: http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html

Meh, i read the link and it seems that they do a great job of throwing everybody in the same boat, generalizing every aspect, and muddling over the facts.

For instance, it mentioned "using" people for money. Name one business that does not rely on people to make money.

MLM's who are in business selling sunglasses are a lot less likely to succeed than MLMs in business selling laundry detergent, coffee, diapers, makeup, toilet paper, shampoo, cereal, vitamins and most other consumables that are of interest to 100% of the public.

Being at the bottom of a MLM pyramid is the same as being at the bottom of a corporate ladder. While at the bottom of the corporate ladder, you only are able to generate income off of your own steam. As you move up the corporate ladder you start relying on people under you to generate income for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Even market structure itself is wrong, because it is based on exploiting people on lower tiers.

As does any other major corporation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Without incentive of "army of underlings that pay your bills", there goes incentive to grow pyramid.

Hi, my name is Sam Walton (Walmart). without my army of underlings, my bills would not be paid.

Hi, my name is Ray Crock (McDonalds). without my army of underlings, my bills would not be paid.

I however do understand why people are so skeptical towards MLMs. They are not guaranteed success. Meaning you can grind the shit out of it for a year and see very minimal results while a friend can find the right crowd and blow up in a few months. But the same goes for anybody who is in business for themselves. You simply don't get paid until you build your organization.

Even so i can still understand why people close their minds to the slightest notion of a "Pyramid Scheme". If 90% of them out there can burn you, A safe bet would be to stay away from them all. IMHO and experience there are really only 2 MLMs that i can see as being successful. One would be Mary Kay, the makeup line. The other would be Quixtar.

I try not to ever be biased towards or against anything in my life and i usually start out skeptical whet presented with any unfamiliar idea. Like for instance, if i was approached at a Home and Garden show with a chance to "go in" on a beta for a video game for the low price of 250$ and 50$ a month. Id probably laugh in his face.

And had i not seen the results first hand of people who actually put effort forth in their business, id probably be on the all Pyramids are schemes bandwagon as well. But what i see is myself making as much as im spending on household items, and a buddy of mine paying all his bills with his MLM income while his full time job sends 100% of his paychecks to savings.

Now dont get me wrong, Im not saying that you should go take a dump on your bosses desk and put all your eggs in the MLM basket, but if you find a seemingly successful group in a business that makes sense, I think its worth the spare income.

Now im to the point to where i like buying my necessities through Quixtar because of the convenience and if i get paid for it, that's just a bonus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

The thing with pyramid schemes is eventually they run out of investors to keep supplying the cash flow needed to support itself. The last people in will never get their money back and all comes crashing down.

edit: Fril you beat me to it.

If society suddenly stopped growing and if people stopped breeding and aging, then this statement would be true.

zwei2stein · Jan 28, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

...

You don't see difference between hierarchy and pyramid.

In pyramid, goal is to get underlings for sake of having them and nothing more, except getting even more downline.

In hierarchy goal is to get underlings for sake of delegating responsibilities and getting job done.

Neither Walmart or McDonalds pretend that they employ you while in fact their goal is to scam money of you.

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

You don't see difference between hierarchy and pyramid.

In pyramid, goal is to get underlings for sake of having them and nothing more, except getting even more downline.

In hierarchy goal is to get underlings for sake of delegating responsibilities and getting job done.

lets take Quixtar for example just because im familar with it. First and foremost, I DONT get paid for having a downline. I get paid for moving volume.

The goal is to move volume from Quixtar. I can either move it all myself, or i can find underlings to move it. My downline isnt there just for the sake of feeding me. They are there to move volume.

example 1: I can have 100 people in my downline and if nobody moves volume, nobody makes any money.
example 2: On the other hand i have have ZERO people in my downline and move 1,000,000 units of volume and make a killing.

while option 2 pays more, it requires an ungodly amount of time and effort. I can just get

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

underlings for sake of delegating responsibilities and moving volume.

which will pay me for my effort while in turn paying them for moving the volume.

forgive me if you already realize this but VOLUME = socks, toothpaste, beverages, soap, apparel, makeup, etc...

same method works for Mary Kay. Basically you are just getting paid to Market.

Fril Estelin · Jan 28, 2009, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

As you move up the corporate ladder you start relying on people under you to generate income for you.

Wrong, you generate income for everyone in a company. You pay the bills for all the common goods (electricity, paper, water, etc.) and contribute to the company pool that pays wages to everyone, from "top" to "bottom". And in a company the "top" aspect is mainly about decision power, although this is correlated to salary. An MLM exists only because individuals want to find a "relatively easy" way to make money for themselves, relying on the basic rule that they're above others in the scheme. In a company, everyone is on the same boat, most employees are at the same level (it's about skill, not scale).

Here are some of the reasons why MLMs are illegal:
http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Wrong, you generate income for everyone in a company. You pay the bills for all the common goods (electricity, paper, water, etc.) and contribute to the company pool that pays wages to everyone, from "top" to "bottom". And in a company the "top" aspect is mainly about decision power, although this is correlated to salary. An MLM exists only because individuals want to find a "relatively easy" way to make money for themselves, relying on the basic rule that they're above others in the scheme. In a company, everyone is on the same boat, most employees are at the same level (it's about skill, not scale).

Here are some of the reasons why MLMs are illegal:
http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm

Wrong. The real generators of the income are the front liners. The interface with the client/customer base. The higher ups just manage the workers and manage the revenue. But they do not generate it. The front liners are the bottom of the ladder.
but we could argue that all day because it is more of a symbiotic relationship because one couldn't exist without the other.

People who think MLMs are easy, are the ones who have tried and failed at them. Proper MLMs are not easy, They take lots of work building proper structure.

If MLMs are as illegal as you say, then Quixtar must not be one. Since it was one of the most common advertisements for the 2008 Summer Olympics. And commercials for it still come on multiple times a day. Your facts are as muddled as your links.

Glider of chaos · Jan 28, 2009, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Guys, don't try to convince daze

he benefits from it, so he won't accept it's bad. It's not because he's spoiled or something but because it's human nature. People tend to accept means they use as good for the most time. Probably daze feels a bit of guilt (he turns defensive and uses "it's ok because others use it too" argument) but it won't do any good to make him feel uneasy

As on the topic... There are some heave similarities between the whole MMO thing and pyramids. Look at the average MMO player. Most are really eager to drag their real life friends into the game as well. I talked few guys into trying GW myself and couple of them bought the game, one of them got another couple to start playing

But on the other hand due to the eager players MMO developers don't seem to need this whole pyramid structure. They get the whole jackpot without paying recruitment fees.

P.S. IMO the whole "get bunch of future games for ridiculous price" offer was somewhat unbelievable from the very start =)

Fril Estelin · Jan 28, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

The real generators of the income are the front liners. The interface with the client/customer base. The higher ups just manage the workers and manage the revenue. But they do not generate it. The front liners are the bottom of the ladder.
but we could argue that all day because it is more of a symbiotic relationship because one couldn't exist without the other.

I don't know how much you've worked in a real company, but that's rarely true (unless it's a big company, where there are indeed administrative suckers that work like topmen in an MLM). Good work can't succeed without good business decision, as can be seen from GW1 (or you could take other bad examples). In the case of software development, I've met many brilliant programmers which can't make business decisions (i.e. make the wrong ones) and actually don't want to, so they're happy to delegate this work to others more qualified people. This is indeed, as you said, symbiosis where both work in the same direction by complementing each other. The vertical relation in companies enables the company to make information flow so that decision can be made efficiently (rather than having a big meeting), and this is actually one of the fundamental reason why a company succeeds or fails depending on how good they are at "collaborating".

You could illustrate that with so many other examples: in a superstore, the guys carrying the vegetables and at the till is as important as the one setting the prices and contacting the suppliers, or the one creating the store image and PR.

Quote:

People who think MLMs are easy, are the ones who have tried and failed at them. Proper MLMs are not easy, They take lots of work building proper structure.

Who said it was easy? Difficulty is irrelevant, you don't something that's difficult for the sake of saying it's difficult, or else I can propose to you challenges that are a lot more difficult.

Quote:

If MLMs are as illegal as you say, then Quixtar must not be one. Since it was one of the most common advertisements for the 2008 Summer Olympics. And commercials for it still come on multiple times a day. Your facts are as muddled as your links.

I'm not saying it, most countries do. I'm not even debating the legal frontiers between the various schemes, because I'm unable to do it, I only know the basics, and I have an opinion on the whole thing (I'm not confusing the two btw).

Let me ask you a question: why are you taking part to this MLM rather than work in a company?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider of chaos

As on the topic... There are some heave similarities between the whole MMO thing and pyramids. Look at the average MMO player. Most are really eager to drag their real life friends into the game as well. I talked few guys into trying GW myself and couple of them bought the game, one of them got another couple to start playing

It's not the same because the relationship structure is not a "pyramid" but a standard graph. You often end up with friends of friends, so it's like a closed circle or many-connected points. It's a basic property of human networks, otherwise called "word of mouth" or "social networking". Nothing wrong here because in the end, you're not in a "system" but simply creating a group of friends inside the MMO.

I've actually seen social networks, such as the terrible Gaia, where this kind of "pyramid schemes" is almost present. They give you virtual coins for people you bring and then residual coins for those these guys bring. There was also the very funny virtual game La Brute, where you would benefit from 2nd-level and 3rd-level relationships (but it was only for fun, nothing "viral" about it).

Quote:

P.S. IMO the whole "get bunch of future games for ridiculous price" offer was somewhat unbelievable from the very start =)

You'd be surprised (or not) about what people can be made to believe, using social engineering techniques for example.

MisterB · Jan 28, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Here are some of the reasons why MLMs are illegal:
http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm

Actually, that link shows just the opposite. Legitimate MLMs are legal, at least in the U.S. Excerpt from that statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by What is a Pyramid Scheme and What is Legitimate Marketing?

Some people confuse pyramid and Ponzi schemes with legitimate multilevel marketing. Multilevel marketing programs are known as MLM's,(4) and unlike pyramid or Ponzi schemes, MLM's have a real product to sell. More importantly, MLM's actually sell their product to members of the general public, without requiring these consumers to pay anything extra or to join the MLM system. MLM's may pay commissions to a long string of distributors, but these commission are paid for real retail sales, not for new recruits.

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Let me ask you a question: why are you taking part to this MLM rather than work in a company?

im getting off work for the day so i dont have time to respond to your whole post.. ill answer this question though..

I have 2 jobs on top of my MLM venture through quixtar.. I work for EDS fixing computers for Continental airlines by night. I sell roofs by day as well as other housing construction. And in my spare time i pitch my Quixtar business around.

EDS pays my bills
Best Quality Roofing and construction pays my kids bills and college fund
Quixtar buys my groceries and household items.

But as Glider says. You really wont convince me of anything. Just because it works and works well for me and my associates. If it crashes, BFD it was just a spare time thing anyways. I make more and more each month and i see my upline doing the same thing as well as most of my downline.

Fril Estelin · Jan 28, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Actually, that link shows just the opposite. Legitimate MLMs are legal, at least in the U.S. Excerpt from that statement:

Nope, you've misread, even the part you quote. It defines what "legal MLMs" are, to correct the fact that basically MLMs are illegals. As I said in my last post, the legal frontier is always fuzzy (that's a trick you learn with experience, exploit these "grey areas" where the law is not completely clear, see the case of RMT in MMOs). My discussion with daze btw is on the principle of MLMs, not on the particular one he's using (that may well be legal).

There's a world of difference between "legal" and "right", as you may know.

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Nope, you've misread, even the part you quote. It defines what "legal MLMs" are, to correct the fact that basically MLMs are illegals. As I said in my last post, the legal frontier is always fuzzy (that's a trick you learn with experience, exploit these "grey areas" where the law is not completely clear, see the case of RMT in MMOs). My discussion with daze btw is on the principle of MLMs, not on the particular one he's using (that may well be legal).

There's a world of difference between "legal" and "right", as you may know.

For the record. Quixtar doesnt scam or exploit anything from anybody. It provides a service and is completely up front with what the IBO can expect depending on how he decides to handle his business.
At least that is how i build my downline. I simply offer them the same opportunity that i am taking successful advantage of and help them do the same. I tell them not to put all their eggs into one basket

Fril Estelin · Jan 28, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

exploit

Very good, you said "the word", now we could start talking dirty. I said "could" because I'm not going to do it, I know that you're going to spin words in such a way that you won't face the truth. As you just said "You really wont convince me of anything", which is I guess part of the MLM job (sorry for the irony but when you take part in a discussion and declare such things, nothing good can come out of this). I've spent a few minutes googling Quixtar and I can't say it's illegal, but I'm convinced it's "wrong".

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Very good, you said "the word", now we could start talking dirty. I said "could" because I'm not going to do it, I know that you're going to spin words in such a way that you won't face the truth. As you just said "You really wont convince me of anything", which is I guess part of the MLM job (sorry for the irony but when you take part in a discussion and declare such things, nothing good can come out of this). I've spent a few minutes googling Quixtar and I can't say it's illegal, but I'm convinced it's "wrong".

Quixtar is like any other business opportunity. You have the ability to be up front and forthcoming or you can be underhanded, and conniving. Would you care to explain how it is wrong? But then again wrong is an opinion word anyways.

Let me explain. Someone who is not trying to build a sturdy foundation will just push the system on its downline without giving explanation. For instance buying tools (CD,s books, and other media on how to attract potential IBOs). A bad upline will tell you to just spend hundereds of dollars on these tools blindly without asking questions without giving alternatives.

Me for example, i present the methods and give the benefits and disadvantages. If a person doesnt have the means to spend the extra cash on the helpful tools, i present alternatives.

What would be wrong is to lie to the person and say "trust me. just do this and you will be rich"

what i say is "how would you like the opportunity to earn a little extra change in your spare time?" I tell them that its not a guaranteed meal ticket and that it would be a good idea to always have a backup plan, but the business has the potential to return with very satisfying results.

Now tell me how is that wrong?

Im not pushing vaporware, im not pushing time shares, im not pushing left handed can openers. Im giving people the opportunity for people to buy stuff that they already buy from themselves, teach other people to do the same, and make money in the process. Sounds to me like getting paid to word of mouth advertise.

And the reason that i say you wont convince me of anything is because i have a first hand view of how it actually works. I pride myself on my high morals, i dont exploit anybody, and i dont push anything on people. And im successful in the process. You can read all the propaganda sites that you wish and buy in to the stereotype all day long, but you still only have an outside perspective. So although i do respect your opinion, i dont have to swallow it.

Fril Estelin · Jan 28, 2009, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

But then again wrong is an opinion word anyways.

I agree, and I used this word on purpose. I'm not going to discuss with you of that because, I already did in the past and it's time I'd rather use for something more important (and fruitful, no point in discussing with you since you're saying yourself that you won't consider what we say). Don't take it personally but there's something fundamentally, ethically wrong about MLMs, even legal ones. That's my opinion and I'm no scrub when it comes to social engineering techniques.

EDIT: a great read for everyone:
Multilevel marketing: what’s the catch? by Brian Bloch, Senior Lecturer at the Department of International Business, University of Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

And the reason that i say you wont convince me of anything is because i have a first hand view of how it actually works. I pride myself on my high morals, i dont exploit anybody, and i dont push anything on people. And im successful in the process. You can read all the propaganda sites that you wish and buy in to the stereotype all day long, but you still only have an outside perspective. So although i do respect your opinion, i dont have to swallow it.

While I'm not willing to question your motives and methods, I highly doubt that you can claim "high morals" and immediately disregard many articles as "propaganda". Look at the very serious article, link above.

Let me just finish by saying that your attitude looks like the one of people who consciously are blinding themselves, voluntarily ignoring arguments so that they can achieve their aims. But the ends does not justify the means, I cannot trust you on your "first hand view", because I believe you're: 1) not seeing the big picture; 2) your morals are not as "high" as you claim they are (which does not mean that you're malicious); 3) the very concept of MLM is deeply burried in the complex methods put in place by "exploiters" (may be not you, but your bosses who handed you the "method").

I'm trying not to be aggressive as this is a delicate topic, where there's no absolute right and wrong, or "facts" as you claim (it's only your word...). But deep inside me, this MLM stuff does sound like RMT to me, an exploitation of social mechanisms for the sole purpose of making money, and sometimes to the point where you twist reality to make it look like "acceptable".

I'm not claiming I'm right, nor am I trying to convince anyone (I could discuss this with you via PM but as I said I don't want to), but I think the questions about MLMs are legitimate. See the OP for more details.

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I agree, and I used this word on purpose. I'm not going to discuss with you of that because, I already did in the past and it's time I'd rather use for something more important (and fruitful, no point in discussing with you since you're saying yourself that you won't consider what we say). Don't take it personally but there's something fundamentally, ethically wrong about MLMs, even legal ones. That's my opinion and I'm no scrub when it comes to social engineering techniques.

EDIT: a great read for everyone:
Multilevel marketing: what’s the catch? by Brian Bloch, Senior Lecturer at the Department of International Business, University of Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand

You keep saying that it is so wrong, Yet you still wont explain what is so morally wrong with Quixtar like you stated earlier. Besides the extremely vague "it exploits people" bit. You do however do an excellent job of regurgitating links with other peoples opinions.

Maybe if you told me what im doing that is so immoral, i might see the light and mend my sinful ways. But you will have to express your own thoughts on the matter and not quote or link to someone elses thoughts.

No offence but im done reading your droll 100 page links. Id rather hear your own personal reasons. And since im so self blinding, could you explain it to me in 50 words or less. Just pretend that im a 10 year old.

And fine, ill read your link when i wake up. Im going to bed now. ill be awake in 6 hours

Fril Estelin · Jan 28, 2009, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

You keep saying that it is so wrong, Yet you still wont explain what is so morally wrong with Quixtar like you stated earlier. Besides the extremely vague "it exploits people" bit. You do however do an excellent job of regurgitating links with other peoples opinions.

I actually spent about 1h looking at dozens of links, tons of stuff, trying to gather information and not "regurgitate" it. (as a scientist I do that a lot) Once more, you're being a little bit aggressive, as MLMers tend to do.

I know this is not right to point fingers at people's businesses saying you're wrong and then "escaping" by saying you don't want to spare the time. But I've lost enough time because of people like you. Or may be you're feeling like I could damage your business and cut you from potential downliners on Guru? ;P

Quote:

Maybe if you told me what im doing that is so immoral, i might see the light and mend my sinful ways. But you will have to express your own thoughts on the matter and not quote or link to someone elses thoughts.

What's the point given that you're not going to change your mind or you have "first hand view of how it actually works"? Once more, I'll say again that I had similar discussion and they all ended up the same way, so let's cut to the chase:

People will make an opinion by themselves (please read this article, it's published in the very serious Journal of Consumer Marketing), I'm out of here.

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I actually spent about 1h looking at dozens of links, tons of stuff, trying to gather information and not "regurgitate" it. (as a scientist I do that a lot) Once more, you're being a little bit aggressive, as MLMers tend to do.

I know this is not right to point fingers at people's businesses saying you're wrong and then "escaping" by saying you don't want to spare the time. But I've lost enough time because of people like you. Or may be you're feeling like I could damage your business and cut you from potential downliners on Guru? ;P

What's the point given that you're not going to change your mind or you have "first hand view of how it actually works"? Once more, I'll say again that I had similar discussion and they all ended up the same way, so let's cut to the chase:

People will make an opinion by themselves (please read this article, it's published in the very serious Journal of Consumer Marketing), I'm out of here.

lol. contacting on Guru is not a good idea, that is a desperate move to find weak contacts. (no offense GWG posters) I like to be face to face with my downline.

ANd please dont think im being aggressive because im the typical MLMer. Feel free to check my post history on Guru. you will learn that im just aggressive by nature. And i do enjoy a nice constructive debate that will stimulate critical thinking. but so far all you provide is links.

Lord of kryta · Jan 28, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I was looking around and saw this video that dateline did http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...89802739458876

It looks like some kind of cult

daze · Jan 28, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

well i couldnt get the google video to work. But since we are all supplying links to prove out points, here is a link.
http://westernmichigan.bbb.org/WWWRo...&firm=11002927
That is from the better business bureau giving quixtar as a Multi level business an a+ business rating.

we could play link wars all day and get nowhere..

The only reason i am taking your links with a grain of salt is because i could find a hundred links that give compelling arguments to "prove" either side true.

The above poster mentioned cult, so lets take take religion for example.
I could take 20 minutes and find dozens of links to people giving reasonable explanations as to why religion is immoral. And on the other side of that same coin, i could take 20 minutes to find dozens of sites that give reasonable explanation as to why religion is a good thing.

These articles are all general information usually just voicing one persons specific opinion or point of view. Completely biased. None of them have given a direct argument to any of my specific points.

One more example, and im sorry for jumping around on my points. But lets go back to religion again. Lets say that i am starting from a standpoint of ignorance on the topic of religion. Having never even heard of religion, i decide to google it in order to learn about it. I end up stumbling upon an explanation of religion by Bill Mahr. Now while Bill Mahr makes very convincing and very logical arguments as to why religion brings down society, its hardly biased. But now i am completely against the thought of religion because of the compelling article by Bill Mahr.

So that is why i dont take one sided articles seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

People will make an opinion by themselves (please read this article, it's published in the very serious Journal of Consumer Marketing), I'm out of here.

PS this article wants me to pay 13 GBP to read it.

if we are supplying links that require payment to prove our points then here https://smallbusiness.dnb.com/webapp...egoryId=19024#
that is one of the most accredited business report sites available

Better Business Bureau and Dun & Bradstreet are the 2 top resources for businesses available. Much more credible and un-biased than any 3rd person article you can provide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Better Business Bureau

Quixtar Independent Business Owners (IBOs) refer their customers to www.quixtar.com for products and services and earn income based on sales resulting from their referrals and on sales made by other IBOs they have registered. Each IBO's individual success depends upon his or her own efforts and the selling efforts of those whom they register.

I believe this says it all.

Chthon · Jan 29, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Let me preface this post with saying that I don't know anything about the the particulars of Quixtar, so I'm going to stick to MTM generally. In fact, I'm not even going to start with MTM; I'm going to start with some much broader concepts.

Let's begin with fraud. Fraud is inducing someone to give you something of value by intentionally misleading them. Usually the thing of value is their cash, but it could be their property, services, time, or effort. Usually the misleading takes the form of an outright lie, but it could be a deliberate omission or equivocation with the intent to mislead.

Although I'm consistently amazed by the vabbian trade contract scammer population of these boards that tries to rationalize their way around it, I should really hope that we can all start on the same page that fraud is wrong. Lying to people in order to get their money is wrong. Everyone with me so far? Good.

Now, let's look at classical pyramid schemes. Mind you, I'm not talking about MTM (yet); what I'm talking about is the classic "give $X to the person above you, recruit Y more people, and give Z% of the $X they give you to the person above you" kind of scheme. There's two important things going on here: First, there is the cold mathematical truth that the pyramid must eventually collapse, and, when it does, a large majority of the participants will lose money. Period. If you don't grasp this, the FTC article lays out the math fairly well. Second, there is the lying. No one signs up for a pyramid scheme if they are told truthfully that odds are they will lose money on it. No, they're told that they'll make money. And usually they're told that by someone higher in the scheme who knows the potential recruit is likely to lose money, but chooses to lie to them to get their money. That's fraud. That's wrong. We are, I hope, still all on the same page that this is pretty clearly wrong.

Now, let's talk about the distinction between legitimate MTM and MTM that masks a pyramid scheme. Legitimate MTM operates as a business (with an unusual structure), and, like any business, it makes its money by selling goods or services to a customer base outside of itself. MTM that masks a pyramid scheme makes its money from new recruits, like any pyramid scheme, and dresses up the transfer of money from the recruit the the higher-up as a business transaction. To say that another way: In MTM that masks a pyramid scheme, the substance of the transactions -- a transfer from recruits to higher-ups -- is the same as a classical pyramid scheme, but the form of the transactions is changed -- it's "dressed up." This dressing up can take a number of forms: The higher-up can "sell" the recruit merchandise -- more than s/he could ever sell, usually for an above-market price. The higher-up can sell the recruit consumable "things you'd buy anyway" -- at an above-market price. The higher-up can charge the recruit fees for membership, or "education materials," or "exclusive web-portal access," or any number of ridiculous things that have no relationship to the actual cost of providing those things. Really, there's no end to the particulars that the transaction can take on; but the fundamentals remain constant -- keep an eye on who the money is coming from; whenever the money is coming from external customers, it's legit MTM; whenever money is coming from recruits, the MTM is masking a pyramid scheme. And, I should add, whenever there's a deliberate blurring of who's a customer and who's a recruit, that means one should run for the door because it's definitely a pyramid scheme.

In the case of MTM that masks a pyramid scheme, the same two fundamental points hold true as with a classical pyramid scheme: First, it will collapse and most participants will lose their shirts. Second, there's that lie again. Recruits aren't being told, "you will probably lose money." Instead they're being told, "this is a great opportunity to make money," or maybe "this is a great opportunity to make money, if you work hard," when neither is true. It follows then that MTM that masks a pyramid scheme is just as fraudulent and just as wrong as a classical pyramid scheme.

I have two final thoughts to add:

First, I've never seen a legitimate MTM organization. Every single one of them that's ever crossed my path has made their money by suckering it out of their recruits. I admit that I don't make a habit of keeping tabs on them, and I know nothing about Quixtar in specific, so, for all I know, they could be the exception to the rule. But I rather doubt it.

Second, if a legitimate MTM does exist somewhere out there, I can't imagine why anyone would want to take part in it. Think about the deal you're being offered: You will be compensated extremely poorly for your own labors (thanks to your obligations to your upline), and you might be compensated well for someone else's labors, if they happen to do a good job, despite being offered the same deal and same incentive (not) to work hard as you.